Curse

Lishy · Jul 30, 2009, 08:05 PM // 20:05

Another counter to the argument:
Isn't something not used BECAUSE it sucks? There's like comparing the NU tier in pokemon to the OU, and even UU tier.

Unless there's a surprising, amazing breakthrough in build strategy in pets after over 4 years, there's a good reason pets aren't used.
The bar compression and synergy with team strategies suck.

Miss Puddles · Jul 30, 2009, 08:47 PM // 20:47

The beast mastery line has a lot of potential and can deal out a lot of damage with a good build, but it's SLOW. Attack speed needs to be addressed, as well as targeting speed and, well, the AI in general needs to be more like hero AI to be more viable.
Can you imagine your heroes' response time to commands being like a pet's?

Reverend Dr · Jul 30, 2009, 10:51 PM // 22:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kain Fz

Another counter to the argument:
Isn't something not used BECAUSE it sucks?

On the contrary a lot of things are not used because other things are better. Look at Dervishes, there is nothing wrong with them in PvE, but other classes/builds can do what they do better so Dervishes are not used.

Let's buff pets! Next week when it makes assassins and dervs less powerful and unused, lets buff those. Week after that buff sins and dervs, forcing out warriors and unbelievably elementalists. Then lets buff

draxynnic · Jul 31, 2009, 05:28 AM // 05:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagmaRed

Charm and Comfort are required because of balance. And yes, I know PvE throws balance out the window a lot, but I'd not like to see it done more than it already has. Having a pet means you do more damage. So hitting a target with your bow and pet will do close to double damage (depending on attributes). Now toss in skills to do more damage and the numbers can get quite large. If Charm Animal was merged with Comfort Animal, I'd like to see the pet become your weapon so that you can't wield a bow, hammer, spear, axe, sword, daggers, wand, staff, etc. if using a pet.

No, pets aren't used often, but that doesn't mean they aren't useful. Making them useful on a build that isn't designed around the pet would NOT be good for the game.

And you pay for it by having to split attributes between BM and any other attributes you may have. You also pay for it by paying a slot for each skill you use to buff the pets (and the damage done by a pet autoattacking, even with high BM is, well, not high). You pay for it by skill blackouts if the pet dies, and the fact that when that happens every skill that involves the pet that isn't the res suddenly becomes nothing. You're already paying a significantly high price before you get the additional tax of not one but two skills even before you start to think about pet attacks and shouts.

Now, minions and assassins may not be very good comparisons to make, but asura summons that give you one ally at a cost of one skill slot ant 10 energy per minute probably are.

To be fair, team builds in which everyone has a pet can be powerful - but part of that is that in such a team build you can simply have one character with Revive as the designated reviver.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrettM

Now that would be seriously cool, especially if they added giant ferrets to the game. Go, my furry army, go! (Actually, I just want a giant ferret. Just one would be fine, instead of an army. Is that too much to ask? )

So, have you signed up for an eternal apprenticeship?

BrettM · Jul 31, 2009, 01:29 PM // 13:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kain Fz

Ping or I don't believe you. Only way I can see have that much damage output is enraged lunge combined with shouts for your pets such as feral aggression.

I don't believe it, either. My own tests on Master of Damage at 16 BM with Enraged Lunge builds (two buffs, three attacks) give a *sustained* output of around 47 DPS. That's respectable, but not anywhere near 110. Also, I doubt that I'm realizing the same DPS in actual battle, where foes kite around and the pet is slow to attack.

Reverend Dr · Jul 31, 2009, 03:34 PM // 15:34

14 beast will easily get it to around a constant 55DPS, of course with large packets at every enraged for the standard r/p Enraged bar we've been seeing. With multiple targets the bleeding+poison will have some more damage, but at 14 dps of that degen you would need to keep it up on 5 extra targets (which isn't exactly feasible) to keep it over 100.

trankle · Jul 31, 2009, 04:12 PM // 16:12

With the addition of the Menagerie, I kind of expected a change to the types of pets. Currently, (with the exception of the Black Bear with Brutal Mauling), all pets are identical - same damage type, same HP, same speed, etc.

Now that I can charm any pet type, and go pick whichever kind I want while building for a mission/quest/vanquish, it seems like pets could be varied in their capabilities and stats.

For example, amongst the Prophecies pets, bears could get a bonus to armor and damage, but a penalty to movement and attack speeds. Lizards could get a bonus to attack and movement speed, but a penalty to damage and armor. Snow wolves could do cold damage. Stalkers could be the baseline pet, with no penalties or bonuses. And so on.

Plan to use your pet to defend the stairs in Eternal Grove? Bring a bear. Using a lot of physical buffs in a fast paced vanquish? Bring a lizard. Etc.

It just seems like a wasted opportunity now that swapping pets is so simple.

Phoenix Tears · Aug 01, 2009, 02:13 PM // 14:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

Phoenix Tears....did you just suggest that a ranger can have 5-6 level 15 pets?

really?

Necromancers can have 10 Minions with Attributes of 16+ couple of attribute buffs from consumable + certain skills even more temporarely buffs to death magic for pve more creatures, that reach easily lvl 15 + not and never to forget...the necromancer has the flesh golem, which easily goes OVER lvl 20 ...

so what is so damn wrong about increasing the amount of pets for rangers for decreasing the maximums pet level AND their maximum strength/defense, so more pets you want to take with you and thus still having then lesser maximum "minions", than a necromancer ...

I don't see any balancing problems with that ...

1. the ranger would finally become through these changes a real beast master

2. decressing the max level of pets, so more u want to take with you makes pets easier to kill because of lesser maximum health due to that...

3. decreasing the strength, so more u want to take with you will work against the point that rangers won't become able to do way to much damage

4. decreasing the defense power of pets, so more you want to take with you helps again that pets will be easier to kill, thus balancing the increase of the pet amount...

5. it would allow the ranger to get some real interesting new builds for sure.

Tyla · Aug 01, 2009, 02:45 PM // 14:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phoenix Tears

Necromancers can have 10 Minions with Attributes of 16+ couple of attribute buffs from consumable + certain skills even more temporarely buffs to death magic for pve more creatures, that reach easily lvl 15 + not and never to forget...the necromancer has the flesh golem, which easily goes OVER lvl 20 ...

Couple of points here.

- Minions require enemy corpses (unless you're playing some stupid gimmick) to be brought up excluding a few things - dead party members / pets when there are lack of corpses on enemies, and Aura of the Lich, which brings up one minion.

- Minions can't use skills.

- Minions have low health, meaning they will be lost quickly unless you're using some major protection.

- Flesh Golem is an elite skill, so you can't really compare it to a pet. In any case, it attacks incredibly slow and the only factor of it that's good is the fact it has a large amount of health and leaves a corpse behind after-death.

Phoenix Tears · Aug 01, 2009, 03:24 PM // 15:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Couple of points here.

- Minions require enemy corpses (unless you're playing some stupid gimmick) to be brought up excluding a few things - dead party members / pets when there are lack of corpses on enemies, and Aura of the Lich, which brings up one minion.

- Minions can't use skills.

- Minions have low health, meaning they will be lost quickly unless you're using some major protection.

- Flesh Golem is an elite skill, so you can't really compare it to a pet. In any case, it attacks incredibly slow and the only factor of it that's good is the fact it has a large amount of health and leaves a corpse behind after-death.

- that minions have no skils is just not true, the necro also has skills, which interact with minions and thus can be seen as passive skills, like death nova for example

- with decreasing max level, strength + defense pets would be on par with minions, just only with the difference, that undead minions suffer from life degeneration, but thats the most simplest thing, which could be changed for balance, so that minions have no dereg then anymore, once rangers would be able to have more than 1 pet...
It would be so or so normal, that necromancer, like ritualist would receive some minor changes on their minion systems, once rangers would get more pets..it would be inevitable for balancing.

- flesh golem can be compared kind of with the ranger's dumb tame skill, that has to be in the bar, just to have pets with you..so u have to have it too with the flesh golem, but also all other minions, which is the only major difference between both classes...

necros need for every kind of minion a skill in the bar..for rangers its only 1 skill to have the pet at the side ever as long as it lives.
Some kind of gameplay design unbalance I also would like to see getting fixed.

Necros should also have to have just only 1 skill in the bar (except for elite minions) to be able to summon any kind of learned standard minion...

if you click then the skill button for summoning a standard minion..so should open up a "selection wheel" (hold a button to let it spin around) where the player selects then quick the kind of minion, you want to summon, this way the necro would become a bit more rich on facettes to play.
Same thing should be done then too with the ritualist.... click skill. wheel opens up and you can select ANY standart spirit that you have learned so far...choose one and summon...

imo the way any kind of summoner class should work in GW

however..I hear the crowd coming that yells loud : imba imba imba... XD without being able to say something, what should be changed on the original idea, so that the idea becomes in their eyes not imba, but still would be useful...

Ugh · Aug 01, 2009, 03:24 PM // 15:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phoenix Tears

so what is so damn wrong about increasing the amount of pets for rangers for decreasing the maximums pet level AND their maximum strength/defense, so more pets you want to take with you and thus still having then lesser maximum "minions", than a necromancer ...

I think this is the wrong direction for Beast Mastery to go. Creating a mini army is a niche already filled by the Necromancer so this would be unnecessary. And, MMs are balanced by the fact that they need corpses to create an effective army. With this you could bring 3 Ranger heros with Charm Animal, Call of Protection, and Otyugh's Cry for an invincible meatwall of 18 pets (24 if you brought it too). Or, if you didn't bring defensive skills, you would be in blackout 24/7 because your pets would be dropping like flies.

For a buff to Beast Mastery, I think we would be better off with a fix to Pet AI and some bar compression.

It would be cool seeing multiple pets as an elite or PvE skill, though. Maybe just two max level ones with some debuffs (-25% damage and health, for example). But I'm not sure how that would work. Would they be the same type? Would they have the same name? When I use a pet attack, would they both do it? etc.

Tyla · Aug 01, 2009, 05:20 PM // 17:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phoenix Tears

- that minions have no skils is just not true, the necro also has skills, which interact with minions and thus can be seen as passive skills, like death nova for example

Death Nova can also be used on pets and party members and is only "passive" on heroes.

Quote:

- with decreasing max level, strength + defense pets would be on par with minions, just only with the difference, that undead minions suffer from life degeneration, but thats the most simplest thing, which could be changed for balance, so that minions have no dereg then anymore, once rangers would be able to have more than 1 pet...
It would be so or so normal, that necromancer, like ritualist would receive some minor changes on their minion systems, once rangers would get more pets..it would be inevitable for balancing.

The degeneration is nothing. If you're really bothered about it bring Blood of the Master.

Quote:

- flesh golem can be compared kind of with the ranger's dumb tame skill, that has to be in the bar, just to have pets with you..so u have to have it too with the flesh golem, but also all other minions, which is the only major difference between both classes...

Yes, except it attacks slower, can't be used as effectively as a pet at all and takes up an elite slot.

Quote:

Stuff about buffing Necromancers and Minion Masters

No.

Quote:

however..I hear the crowd coming that yells loud : imba imba imba... XD without being able to say something, what should be changed on the original idea, so that the idea becomes in their eyes not imba, but still would be useful...

I'd rather have people say X is overpowered than someone giving out moronic ideas. Either way, these people are giving ideas out, and arguing against an idea is supposed to say "this idea is terrible" not "this idea is terrible, mine is better". Leave the pet limits alone.

Tenebrae · Aug 01, 2009, 07:15 PM // 19:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ugh

With this you could bring 3 Ranger heros with Charm Animal, Call of Protection, and Otyugh's Cry for an invincible meatwall of 18 pets (24 if you brought it too). Or, if you didn't bring defensive skills, you would be in blackout 24/7 because your pets would be dropping like flies.

For a buff to Beast Mastery, I think we would be better off with a fix to Pet AI and some bar compression.

Yeah , those buffs and shouts should be party-animalcompanion-wide , like paragon skills. That would be a good move and will make BMasters powerful when there are 2+ in a group. Also the mini skills bar on a Pet would be awesome , choosing the skills you want them to have or bring pet specific skills so that every pet would be diff from each other ( not only skin and dmg type ).

wild_ookami · Aug 01, 2009, 08:34 PM // 20:34

Not only are the buffs important, but I think they need a better variety in animals....Or is that just me?^^;

Lishy · Aug 01, 2009, 08:36 PM // 20:36

Anything is powerful in groups.
The fact it only shines decently when you have a high number of them proves how much they suck.

draxynnic · Aug 02, 2009, 09:49 AM // 09:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

- Flesh Golem is an elite skill, so you can't really compare it to a pet. In any case, it attacks incredibly slow and the only factor of it that's good is the fact it has a large amount of health and leaves a corpse behind after-death.

To be fair, a companion requires two skill slots and an attribute investment, while Flesh Golem can simply be attached to a Death Magic bar. The costs are closer to being equal than simply dismissing FGolem due to it being elite would suggest.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ugh

I think this is the wrong direction for Beast Mastery to go. Creating a mini army is a niche already filled by the Necromancer so this would be unnecessary. And, MMs are balanced by the fact that they need corpses to create an effective army. With this you could bring 3 Ranger heros with Charm Animal, Call of Protection, and Otyugh's Cry for an invincible meatwall of 18 pets (24 if you brought it too). Or, if you didn't bring defensive skills, you would be in blackout 24/7 because your pets would be dropping like flies.

For a buff to Beast Mastery, I think we would be better off with a fix to Pet AI and some bar compression.

Aye. The mass army niche is already filled - beastmasters should be more about having one powerful companion (the exact power being linked to how much is invested in the companion). I don't think pets necessarily need a minibar, but they do need a lower tax to simply be brought onto the battlefield in the first place, and they need to work with allied Paragons and have pet attack skills behave like the pet was activating attack skills for the purposes of anthems.

With the Menagerie, introducing some subtle differences between pets may also be worthwhile.

Tenebrae · Aug 02, 2009, 10:10 AM // 10:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kain Fz

Anything is powerful in groups.
The fact it only shines decently when you have a high number of them proves how much they suck.

False and False.
Take 4 warriors with pvp builds to pve uuuuh superpowerful ? BS. Take 4 well sync Paragons there > unbeatable.
Take 1 Monk to heal 12 on Urgoz ..... sux . Take 3 and done. Some things are made to work well in groups , dont confuse be decent in groups with being 12x more powerful when sync'd with the rest of the team. Thats what im talking about the BM should be with each other and they are not.
If something sux , is gonna sux no matter how many party members are like that / carry same build .

Lishy · Aug 02, 2009, 12:22 PM // 12:22

Actually, those 4 warriors could all carry mending and healing breeze to heal each other, and their natural high defense would mean you have quite a bulky team.
This is especially useful with Warriors Endurance to act as Energy Storage primary-like energy management to spam mending and heals while dealing damage. One would also carry Vigorous Spirit.

Don't you just love W/Mo?

MithranArkanere · Aug 04, 2009, 04:10 PM // 16:10

What pets need is more control, more versatility, and not rendering the ranger useless himself if he focuses on the attribute.

That happens with all 3 'leather' professions. Since the weapon becomes useless with no points spend on it, if they want to focus in two attributes, they must forget about physical attacks.

For Dervishes and assassins, they are so spell-caster like that that's not a problem. They can do fine with no points on the weapon, and even when their points are spread between 3 attributes, they still do fine.

But for rangers, that's nasty. The pet alone is no good enough. If they do not put point in expertise, the ranger skills eat up a lot of energy.
The pet alone is slow, and hard to control, it sometimes may run from enemy to enemy.

A ranger goes well with expertise and marksmanship and even spreading attributes even more with another attribute to affect himself.

But when he has to spread to a pet, the spreading is just too big.

The pet is hard to control, it takes to get the to the target, and its attacks are slow (1 ever 2 seconds)

That spedd is to make the pet go with the ranger attacks (bows have an average attack speed of 2 seconds too)

But both bows and pets are almost useless without attack skills. And pets are of no use in HM with a full bar of pet skills, and still bad, since they are 'out of the team' and many of the most effective team affect only party members.

That makes a PvE beast master not '2 characters', but 3/4 of one, having to spread the power so much, and losing so much with a pet that is slow and hard to control.

Pets could have 4 skill slots to compensate that, and in there, you could insert pet attacks and pet attacks only, and its attacks would use YOUR energy when you activate them manually, and recharge too when the pet dies. Then, the higher your points in beast mastery, the more likely the pet will activate the attacks on its own, and that would be energy-free for you, using the pet's energy then. Around 50% every time the pet attacks at Beast Mastery 16 should do fine.
4 pet attacks are more than enough to have for a pet, and that would leave room for other skills for the ranger.

Tenebrae · Aug 04, 2009, 09:02 PM // 21:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

Pets could have 4 skill slots to compensate that, and in there, you could insert pet attacks and pet attacks only, and its attacks would use YOUR energy when you activate them manually, and recharge too when the pet dies. Then, the higher your points in beast mastery, the more likely the pet will activate the attacks on its own, and that would be energy-free for you, using the pet's energy then. Around 50% every time the pet attacks at Beast Mastery 16 should do fine.
4 pet attacks are more than enough to have for a pet, and that would leave room for other skills for the ranger.

I already posted that in #28 but sadly , not gonna happen. I dont really think they can buff pets in some way for pve to make a big diff . Maybe my idea of party-animal-companion wide buffs and shouts but pffff , still sht pet IA and almost no diff between them